Здесь я публикую письма по ХОЛОДНОМУ ЯДЕРНОМУ СИНТЕЗУ по РОССИ-итальянский инженер хочет запустить производство своих установок...
Doubts and questions about the Rossi device continue
Doubts and questions about the Rossi device continue.
Why can’t Mr. Rossi give smaller demonstrations with the help of his production-line devices (which will later be fitted into the 1 MW device) in front of newer (serious and sincere) investigators with newer (serious and sincere) doubts and questions?
Doubts and questions about the Rossi device continue – I mean not the freak or insulting doubts and questions but the serious and sincere ones.
I disagree. After the Feb. 10 test, I have not seen any serious doubts by knowledgeable people. I have seen only nonsense. For example, over the last few days at the Vortex discussion group, a person named Beene has been saying the cell works by extracting 16 kW of heat from the cooling water circulation pump, which is a ~20 W unit. I explained to him:
1. That is a violation of the conservation of energy;
2. Even if the pump was much larger, the water is not restricted inside the cell so no heat can be extracted from it;
3. Heat added to the water by the pump mechanical action is below the inlet thermocouple so it cannot be measured by flow calorimetry.
He did not understand any of these points. I have encountered many people with similar notions. There were legitimate doubts before Feb. 10, and there may be some left now, but I have not seen any.
I agree that it would be delightful if Rossi would do more demonstrations. I would like nothing better. On the other hand we cannot fault him for the choice of people he welcomed to the last demonstration: Essen, the chairman of the Swedish Skeptics Society, and Kullander, the chairman of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences' Energy Committee. See:
http://lenr-canr.org/News.htmI have been in contact with Rossi for a year or so, and I read his blog pretty carefully, so I know what he is thinking.
He says that additional demonstrations will not convince mainstream scientists or the journals or mass media, and they will do nothing to enhance his business plans, so they are a waste of time. He says the only thing that will convince people is direct sales. He may be right about that. So far, only NyTeknik and the Washington Times have taken any notice. No other mass media has covered him. Very few mainstream scientists believe the claims. Even when I tell them that he instantly convinced Essen and Kullander. They say he must be a sleight of hand magician who fooled them, or they say Essen and Kullander must be criminals involved with him in a conspiracy to defraud Defkalion. These are same kinds of responses I have been hearing for 20 years about mainstream cold fusion. This is Robert Park's view of cold fusions. Park himself has not a word about Rossi, but he has often written in the Washington Post and elsewhere that cold fusion was never replicated, and researchers who claim they replicated are lunatics or criminal frauds. He does not mince words. This is the mainstream view of cold fusion. Rossi has had no impact on it. Actually, he has made the opposition worse, because his claims are so flamboyant. Some people willing to admit there might be a marginal effect, close to the noise and probably chemical, but they are outraged when I tell them there is a reactor that inputs 80 W and outputs 16 kW for hours or weeks.
(Park has been told about Rossi. I assume he has said nothing because he has lost interest. I doubt he is worried that he might have been wrong. He told me that thought has never crossed his mind. He is calmly and absolutely certain he is right. He also told me that he has never bothered to read a paper on cold fusion, and I am sure that is true, because he knows nothing about the subject.)
Rossi says none of this will change, and no mainstream journals, corporations or universities will allow cold fusion research until he cuts the Gordian knot by selling machines. I can't fault him for thinking that, when I see the rabid attacks against him. On the other hand, Essen and Kullander asked him to send machines the Universities of Uppsala and Stockholm. He says he will after production begins. I wish he would do it sooner!
I wish he would put more emphasis on making small reactors for demonstrations, and prototypes for the Defkalion factory. For some reason, he is spending all of his time on the 1 MW reactor. I suppose he has a contractual agreement to make it. Any contract can be modified. Modifying this would surely benefit both parties. I cannot understand why the 1 MW reactor has such high priority.
I wish the thought of making it had never crossed his mind. I have told him many times that he could convince the whole world and get a billion dollars in investment capital with what he has now, if he would only give a few of these things to universities and corporations under non disclosure agreements (NDA).
He is very cordial and friendly, but he will not take this or any other advice from me. He is determined to make the 1 MW reactor and deliver it on time.
One reason he is concentrating on this is clear. He will not be paid by Defkalion until he delivers the 1 MW reactor, and they test it and confirm it works. Then -- according to Greek press reports -- he will be paid a one-time royalty of 100 million euros. He does not want anything after that; he is giving Defkalion full rights. He has spent all of his personal fortune developing this. Naturally, he wants to be paid soon. However, as I said, I see nothing special about a 1 MW reactor. Why not change the contract to make it 100 kW? Or 10 kW, for that matter? The 1 MW reactor itself has no more business value than a 10 kW reactor would. Defkalion wants the technology; they do not want one particular prototype reactor of a particular size. It is as if the Wright brothers in 1904, just after Kitty Hawk, had refused to demonstrate or sell any airplanes until they could perfect one that flies 6 and a half hours carrying 6 passengers. Igor Sikorsky did that in 1914. See:
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJthewrightb.pdfThat was a worthy goal in 1914. It was ambitious. It would have been an insane goal in 1904.
- Jed
Doubts and questions about the Rossi device continue
Respected ICCF16 participants
Doubts and questions about the Rossi device continue.
Why can’t Mr. Rossi give smaller demonstrations with the help of his production-line devices (which will later be fitted into the 1 MW device) in front of newer (serious and sincere) investigators with newer (serious and sincere) doubts and questions?
Doubts and questions about the Rossi device continue – I mean not the freak or insulting doubts and questions but the serious and sincere ones. Every production-line device has to be individually tested. Mr. Rossi should therefore periodically hold demos and answer the newer doubts and questions not just with clever brush-off words but with live activity of his production-line devices (which will be built in into the larger device and have to be tested beforehand). Is that not possible?
Feed-back from serious-minded investigators should be welcome.
(I wonder why Steven Krivit is hardly online these days. There is no new news on his website or his blog since many days. Is nothing happening (except Fukushima – but even here the newsline is dead)?)
V. Godbole
--
NEU: FreePhone - kostenlos mobil telefonieren und surfen!
Jetzt informieren:
http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephoneDoubts and questions about the Rossi device continue
Doubts and questions about the Rossi device continue.
Why can’t Mr. Rossi give smaller demonstrations with the help of his production-line devices (which will later be fitted into the 1 MW device) in front of newer (serious and sincere) investigators with newer (serious and sincere) doubts and questions?
Doubts and questions about the Rossi device continue – I mean not the freak or insulting doubts and questions but the serious and sincere ones.
I disagree. After the Feb. 10 test, I have not seen any serious doubts by knowledgeable people. I have seen only nonsense. For example, over the last few days at the Vortex discussion group, a person named Beene has been saying the cell works by extracting 16 kW of heat from the cooling water circulation pump, which is a ~20 W unit. I explained to him:
1. That is a violation of the conservation of energy;
2. Even if the pump was much larger, the water is not restricted inside the cell so no heat can be extracted from it;
3. Heat added to the water by the pump mechanical action is below the inlet thermocouple so it cannot be measured by flow calorimetry.
He did not understand any of these points. I have encountered many people with similar notions. There were legitimate doubts before Feb. 10, and there may be some left now, but I have not seen any.
I agree that it would be delightful if Rossi would do more demonstrations. I would like nothing better. On the other hand we cannot fault him for the choice of people he welcomed to the last demonstration: Essen, the chairman of the Swedish Skeptics Society, and Kullander, the chairman of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences' Energy Committee. See:
http://lenr-canr.org/News.htmI have been in contact with Rossi for a year or so, and I read his blog pretty carefully, so I know what he is thinking.
He says that additional demonstrations will not convince mainstream scientists or the journals or mass media, and they will do nothing to enhance his business plans, so they are a waste of time. He says the only thing that will convince people is direct sales. He may be right about that. So far, only NyTeknik and the Washington Times have taken any notice. No other mass media has covered him. Very few mainstream scientists believe the claims. Even when I tell them that he instantly convinced Essen and Kullander. They say he must be a sleight of hand magician who fooled them, or they say Essen and Kullander must be criminals involved with him in a conspiracy to defraud Defkalion. These are same kinds of responses I have been hearing for 20 years about mainstream cold fusion. This is Robert Park's view of cold fusions. Park himself has not a word about Rossi, but he has often written in the Washington Post and elsewhere that cold fusion was never replicated, and researchers who claim they replicated are lunatics or criminal frauds. He does not mince words. This is the mainstream view of cold fusion. Rossi has had no impact on it. Actually, he has made the opposition worse, because his claims are so flamboyant. Some people willing to admit there might be a marginal effect, close to the noise and probably chemical, but they are outraged when I tell them there is a reactor that inputs 80 W and outputs 16 kW for hours or weeks.
(Park has been told about Rossi. I assume he has said nothing because he has lost interest. I doubt he is worried that he might have been wrong. He told me that thought has never crossed his mind. He is calmly and absolutely certain he is right. He also told me that he has never bothered to read a paper on cold fusion, and I am sure that is true, because he knows nothing about the subject.)
Rossi says none of this will change, and no mainstream journals, corporations or universities will allow cold fusion research until he cuts the Gordian knot by selling machines. I can't fault him for thinking that, when I see the rabid attacks against him. On the other hand, Essen and Kullander asked him to send machines the Universities of Uppsala and Stockholm. He says he will after production begins. I wish he would do it sooner!
I wish he would put more emphasis on making small reactors for demonstrations, and prototypes for the Defkalion factory. For some reason, he is spending all of his time on the 1 MW reactor. I suppose he has a contractual agreement to make it. Any contract can be modified. Modifying this would surely benefit both parties. I cannot understand why the 1 MW reactor has such high priority.
I wish the thought of making it had never crossed his mind. I have told him many times that he could convince the whole world and get a billion dollars in investment capital with what he has now, if he would only give a few of these things to universities and corporations under non disclosure agreements (NDA).
He is very cordial and friendly, but he will not take this or any other advice from me. He is determined to make the 1 MW reactor and deliver it on time.
One reason he is concentrating on this is clear. He will not be paid by Defkalion until he delivers the 1 MW reactor, and they test it and confirm it works. Then -- according to Greek press reports -- he will be paid a one-time royalty of 100 million euros. He does not want anything after that; he is giving Defkalion full rights. He has spent all of his personal fortune developing this. Naturally, he wants to be paid soon. However, as I said, I see nothing special about a 1 MW reactor. Why not change the contract to make it 100 kW? Or 10 kW, for that matter? The 1 MW reactor itself has no more business value than a 10 kW reactor would. Defkalion wants the technology; they do not want one particular prototype reactor of a particular size. It is as if the Wright brothers in 1904, just after Kitty Hawk, had refused to demonstrate or sell any airplanes until they could perfect one that flies 6 and a half hours carrying 6 passengers. Igor Sikorsky did that in 1914. See:
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJthewrightb.pdfThat was a worthy goal in 1914. It was ambitious. It would have been an insane goal in 1904.
- Jed
Дата: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 08:44:22 -0700
Перевод текста на иностранный язык Платная услуга по профессиональному переводу предоставляется компанией Переведем.ру
Jed,
I agree with everything you said except your last paragraph. The Wrights/Sikorsky analogy is useful in a scientific sense, but not in the sense of modern business. Also, do you know that Rossi does not have internal milestones such that he needs to show those smaller reactors in order to receive continued funding? I would expect that Defkalion has those milestones but considers their existence proprietary. That would make good business although a hinderance of the scientific method. Also, the US, and many other countries, believe that the future of power generation is distributed and a 1MW generator is a viable product prototype. After receiving such a prototype, Defkalion can move from science to engineering without the need for intrinsic scale-up. Having spent 25 years in Silicon Valley, I've learned that the scientific method doesn't usually drive "the next best thing" future invention. In fact, the scientific method usually devalues the invention by slowing things down and not protecting the IP.
Let's all hope that Rossi is correct and that he can meet this 1MW goal without stumbling along the way.
Fran
On Apr 20, 2011, at 7:43 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> Vasudev Godbole <
[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> Doubts and questions about the Rossi device continue.
>
> Why can’t Mr. Rossi give smaller demonstrations with the help of his production-line devices (which will later be fitted into the 1 MW device) in front of newer (serious and sincere) investigators with newer (serious and sincere) doubts and questions?
>
> Doubts and questions about the Rossi device continue – I mean not the freak or insulting doubts and questions but the serious and sincere ones.
>
>
> I disagree. After the Feb. 10 test, I have not seen any serious doubts by knowledgeable people. I have seen only nonsense. For example, over the last few days at the Vortex discussion group, a person named Beene has been saying the cell works by extracting 16 kW of heat from the cooling water circulation pump, which is a ~20 W unit. I explained to him:
>
> 1. That is a violation of the conservation of energy;
>
> 2. Even if the pump was much larger, the water is not restricted inside the cell so no heat can be extracted from it;
>
> 3. Heat added to the water by the pump mechanical action is below the inlet thermocouple so it cannot be measured by flow calorimetry.
>
> He did not understand any of these points. I have encountered many people with similar notions. There were legitimate doubts before Feb. 10, and there may be some left now, but I have not seen any.
>
> I agree that it would be delightful if Rossi would do more demonstrations. I would like nothing better. On the other hand we cannot fault him for the choice of people he welcomed to the last demonstration: Essen, the chairman of the Swedish Skeptics Society, and Kullander, the chairman of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences' Energy Committee. See:
>
>
http://lenr-canr.org/News.htm>
> I have been in contact with Rossi for a year or so, and I read his blog pretty carefully, so I know what he is thinking.
>
> He says that additional demonstrations will not convince mainstream scientists or the journals or mass media, and they will do nothing to enhance his business plans, so they are a waste of time. He says the only thing that will convince people is direct sales. He may be right about that. So far, only NyTeknik and the Washington Times have taken any notice. No other mass media has covered him. Very few mainstream scientists believe the claims. Even when I tell them that he instantly convinced Essen and Kullander. They say he must be a sleight of hand magician who fooled them, or they say Essen and Kullander must be criminals involved with him in a conspiracy to defraud Defkalion. These are same kinds of responses I have been hearing for 20 years about mainstream cold fusion. This is Robert Park's view of cold fusions. Park himself has not a word about Rossi, but he has often written in the Washington Post and elsewhere that cold fusion was never replicated, and researchers who claim they replicated are lunatics or criminal frauds. He does not mince words. This is the mainstream view of cold fusion. Rossi has had no impact on it. Actually, he has made the opposition worse, because his claims are so flamboyant. Some people willing to admit there might be a marginal effect, close to the noise and probably chemical, but they are outraged when I tell them there is a reactor that inputs 80 W and outputs 16 kW for hours or weeks.
>
> (Park has been told about Rossi. I assume he has said nothing because he has lost interest. I doubt he is worried that he might have been wrong. He told me that thought has never crossed his mind. He is calmly and absolutely certain he is right. He also told me that he has never bothered to read a paper on cold fusion, and I am sure that is true, because he knows nothing about the subject.)
>
> Rossi says none of this will change, and no mainstream journals, corporations or universities will allow cold fusion research until he cuts the Gordian knot by selling machines. I can't fault him for thinking that, when I see the rabid attacks against him. On the other hand, Essen and Kullander asked him to send machines the Universities of Uppsala and Stockholm. He says he will after production begins. I wish he would do it sooner!
>
> I wish he would put more emphasis on making small reactors for demonstrations, and prototypes for the Defkalion factory. For some reason, he is spending all of his time on the 1 MW reactor. I suppose he has a contractual agreement to make it. Any contract can be modified. Modifying this would surely benefit both parties. I cannot understand why the 1 MW reactor has such high priority.
>
> I wish the thought of making it had never crossed his mind. I have told him many times that he could convince the whole world and get a billion dollars in investment capital with what he has now, if he would only give a few of these things to universities and corporations under non disclosure agreements (NDA).
>
> He is very cordial and friendly, but he will not take this or any other advice from me. He is determined to make the 1 MW reactor and deliver it on time.
>
> One reason he is concentrating on this is clear. He will not be paid by Defkalion until he delivers the 1 MW reactor, and they test it and confirm it works. Then -- according to Greek press reports -- he will be paid a one-time royalty of 100 million euros. He does not want anything after that; he is giving Defkalion full rights. He has spent all of his personal fortune developing this. Naturally, he wants to be paid soon. However, as I said, I see nothing special about a 1 MW reactor. Why not change the contract to make it 100 kW? Or 10 kW, for that matter? The 1 MW reactor itself has no more business value than a 10 kW reactor would. Defkalion wants the technology; they do not want one particular prototype reactor of a particular size. It is as if the Wright brothers in 1904, just after Kitty Hawk, had refused to demonstrate or sell any airplanes until they could perfect one that flies 6 and a half hours carrying 6 passengers. Igor Sikorsky did that in 1914. See:
>
>
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJthewrightb.pdf>
> That was a worthy goal in 1914. It was ambitious. It would have been an insane goal in 1904.
>
> - Jed
>
Francis L. Tanzella, Ph. D.
Senior Chemist
SRI International
333 Ravenswood Ave.
Menlo Park, CA 94025
[email protected]Ph. 650-859-4701
Fx. 650-859-2111
Thu, 21 Apr 2011 23:57:40 -0400
Перевод текста на иностранный язык Платная услуга по профессиональному переводу предоставляется компанией Переведем.ру
I share some of these concerns about safety, but I have absolutely no influence with Rossi. He is a nice fellow, and polite, but he has made it abundantly clear to me the does not want to hear my opinion about his business strategy, or about safety issues. Anyway, this situation is probably out of his hands. Money and power have made their entrance. 200 million euros have reportedly been committed. People at the highest levels in Greece are involved, from the President down, according to the Greek press and Focardi in his interview:
http://22passi.blogspot.com/2011/04/sergio...-ni-h-cold.htmlPeople at the highest levels of government and people who can come up with that kind of money will not listen to us.
I have concerns about safety because Celani told me he detected a burst of radiation during the Jan. 14 demonstration. Villa, from U. Bologna did not detect anything with his instruments. Below is a report I circulated about that event, written by me and checked by Francesco, who may want to make some more changes and updates.
The good news is, I expect this will bring all researchers in the field copious funding. If they begin manufacturing and selling these things, cold fusion will be unstoppable, even if it irradiates some people.
- Jed
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Celani detects radiation during the Jan. 14 demonstration of the Rossi device
Villa reported no gamma emissions or other radiation significantly above background from the Rossi device. Celani, however, said that he did detect something. Here are the details he related to me at ICCF16, from my notes, with corrections and additions by Celani.
Celani attended the demonstration on Jan. 14. The device did not work at first. He and others were waiting impatiently in a room next to the room with the device. He estimates that he was around 6 m from the device. He had two battery-powered detectors:
1. A sodium iodide gamma detector (NaI), set for 1 s acquisition time.
2. A Geiger counter (model GEM Radalert II, Perspective Scientific), which was set to 10 s acquisition time.
Both were turned on as he waited. The sodium iodide detector was in count mode rather than spectrum mode; that is, it just tells the number of counts per second.
Both showed what Celani considers normal background for Italy at that elevation.
As he was waiting, suddenly, during a 1-second interval both detectors were saturated. That is to say, they both registered counts off the scale. The following seconds the NaI detector returned to nomal. The Geiger counter had to be switched off to "delete overrange," which was >7.5 microsievert/hour, and later switched on again.
About 1 to 2 minutes after this event, Rossi emerged from the other room and said the machine just turned on and the demonstration was underway.
Celani commented that the only conventional source of gamma rays far from a nuclear reactor would be a rare event: a cosmic ray impact on the atmosphere producing proton storm shower of particles. He and I agreed it is extremely unlikely this happened coincidentally the same moment the reactor started . . . Although, come to think of it, perhaps the causality is reversed, and the cosmic ray triggered the Rossi device.
Another scientist said perhaps both detectors malfunctioned because of an electromagnetic source in the building or some other prosaic source. Celani considers this unrealistic because he also had in operation battery-operated radio frequency detectors: an ELF (Extremely Low Frequency) and RF (COM environmental microwave monitor), both made by Perspective Scientific. No radio frequency anomalies were detected. I remarked that it is also unrealistic because the two gamma detectors are battery powered and they work on different principles. The scientist pointed to neutron detectors in an early cold fusion experiment that malfunctioned at a certain time of day every day because some equipment in the laboratory building was turned on every day. That sort of thing can happen with neutron detectors, which are finicky, but this Geiger counter is used for safety monitoring. Such devices have to be rugged and reliable or they will not keep you safe, so I doubt it is easy to fool one of them.
Celani expresses some reservations about the reality of the Rossi device. Given his detector results I think it would be more appropriate for him to question the safety of it.
When Celani went in to see the experiment in action, he brought out the sodium iodide detector and prepared to change it to spectrum mode, which would give him more information about the ongoing reaction. Rossi objected vociferously, saying the spectrum would give Celani (or anyone else who see it), all they need to know to replicate the machine and steal Ross's intellectual property.
Celani later groused that there is no point to inviting scientists to a demo if you have no intentions of letter them use their own instruments. (Note, however, that Levi et al. did use their own instruments.)
Jacques Dufour also attended the demonstration. He does not speak much Italian, so he could not follow the discussion. He made some observations, including one that I consider important, namely that the outlet pipe was far too hot to touch. That means the temperature of it was over 70°C. That, in turn, proves there was considerable excess heat. McKubre and others have said the outlet temperature sensor was too close to the body of the device. Others have questioned whether the steam was really dry or not. If the question is whether the machine really produced heat or not, these factors can be ignored. All you need to know is the temperature of the tap water going in (15°C), the flow rate and the power input (400 W). At that power level the outlet pipe would be ~30°C. Celanipoints out that the input power was quite unstable, fluctuating between 400 and 800 W, but it was still not large enough to explain the excess heat.
Celani did not see the steam emerge from the end of the pipe, but he reported the whistling sound of steam passing through the pipe. (Dufour did not notice that but he says he is hard of hearing, especially high frequency sounds.) I think there is no question the water boiled, and much of it was vaporized, so there was massive excess heat. Celani complained that phase-change calorimetry is too complicated, but I think he exaggerates the difficulty. I agree that the actual calorimetric method could be improved, especially with a 5-minute test of steam sparged into a container of cold water.
Here are a couple of additional comments from Celani:
a) The NaI (Tl) gamma detector had an energy range from 25 to 2000 keV;
b) Celani asked, in several public mail to Rossi, that for a conclusive SCIENTIFIC demonstration of such wonderful device, the maximum temperature of the outgoing water has to be <90°C so that CONVENTIONAL flow calorimetry can be used (rather than phase-change calorimetry).
Il 22/04/11 05:57, Jed Rothwell ha scritto:
> I share some of these concerns about safety, but I have absolutely no influence with Rossi. He is a nice fellow, and polite, but he has made it abundantly clear to me the does not want to hear my opinion about his business strategy, or about safety issues. Anyway, this situation is probably out of his hands. Money and power have made their entrance. 200 million euros have reportedly been committed. People at the highest levels in Greece are involved, from the President down, according to the Greek press and Focardi in his interview:
>
>
http://22passi.blogspot.com/2011/04/sergio...-ni-h-cold.html>
> People at the highest levels of government and people who can come up with that kind of money will not listen to us.
>
> I have concerns about safety because Celani told me he detected a burst of radiation during the Jan. 14 demonstration. Villa, from U. Bologna did not detect anything with his instruments. Below is a report I circulated about that event, written by me and checked by Francesco, who may want to make some more changes and updates.
>
> The good news is, I expect this will bring all researchers in the field copious funding. If they begin manufacturing and selling these things, cold fusion will be unstoppable, even if it irradiates some people.
>
> - Jed
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Celani detects radiation during the Jan. 14 demonstration of the Rossi device
>
> Villa reported no gamma emissions or other radiation significantly above background from the Rossi device. Celani, however, said that he did detect something. Here are the details he related to me at ICCF16, from my notes, with corrections and additions by Celani.
>
> Celani attended the demonstration on Jan. 14. The device did not work at first. He and others were waiting impatiently in a room next to the room with the device. He estimates that he was around 6 m from the device. He had two battery-powered detectors:
>
> 1. A sodium iodide gamma detector (NaI), set for 1 s acquisition time.
>
> 2. A Geiger counter (model GEM Radalert II, Perspective Scientific), which was set to 10 s acquisition time.
>
> Both were turned on as he waited. The sodium iodide detector was in count mode rather than spectrum mode; that is, it just tells the number of counts per second.
>
> Both showed what Celani considers normal background for Italy at that elevation.
>
> As he was waiting, suddenly, during a 1-second interval both detectors were saturated. That is to say, they both registered counts off the scale. The following seconds the NaI detector returned to nomal. The Geiger counter had to be switched off to "delete overrange," which was >7.5 microsievert/hour, and later switched on again.
>
> About 1 to 2 minutes after this event, Rossi emerged from the other room and said the machine just turned on and the demonstration was underway.
>
> Celani commented that the only conventional source of gamma rays far from a nuclear reactor would be a rare event: a cosmic ray impact on the atmosphere producing proton storm shower of particles. He and I agreed it is extremely unlikely this happened coincidentally the same moment the reactor started . . . Although, come to think of it, perhaps the causality is reversed, and the cosmic ray triggered the Rossi device.
>
> Another scientist said perhaps both detectors malfunctioned because of an electromagnetic source in the building or some other prosaic source. Celani considers this unrealistic because he also had in operation battery-operated radio frequency detectors: an ELF (Extremely Low Frequency) and RF (COM environmental microwave monitor), both made by Perspective Scientific. No radio frequency anomalies were detected. I remarked that it is also unrealistic because the two gamma detectors are battery powered and they work on different principles. The scientist pointed to neutron detectors in an early cold fusion experiment that malfunctioned at a certain time of day every day because some equipment in the laboratory building was turned on every day. That sort of thing can happen with neutron detectors, which are finicky, but this Geiger counter is used for safety monitoring. Such devices have to be rugged and reliable or they will not keep you safe, so I doubt it is easy to fool one of them.
>
> Celani expresses some reservations about the reality of the Rossi device. Given his detector results I think it would be more appropriate for him to question the safety of it.
>
> When Celani went in to see the experiment in action, he brought out the sodium iodide detector and prepared to change it to spectrum mode, which would give him more information about the ongoing reaction. Rossi objected vociferously, saying the spectrum would give Celani (or anyone else who see it), all they need to know to replicate the machine and steal Ross's intellectual property.
>
> Celani later groused that there is no point to inviting scientists to a demo if you have no intentions of letter them use their own instruments. (Note, however, that Levi et al. did use their own instruments.)
>
> Jacques Dufour also attended the demonstration. He does not speak much Italian, so he could not follow the discussion. He made some observations, including one that I consider important, namely that the outlet pipe was far too hot to touch. That means the temperature of it was over 70°C. That, in turn, proves there was considerable excess heat. McKubre and others have said the outlet temperature sensor was too close to the body of the device. Others have questioned whether the steam was really dry or not. If the question is whether the machine really produced heat or not, these factors can be ignored. All you need to know is the temperature of the tap water going in (15°C), the flow rate and the power input (400 W). At that power level the outlet pipe would be ~30°C. Celanipoints out that the input power was quite unstable, fluctuating between 400 and 800 W, but it was still not large enough to explain the excess heat.
>
> Celani did not see the steam emerge from the end of the pipe, but he reported the whistling sound of steam passing through the pipe. (Dufour did not notice that but he says he is hard of hearing, especially high frequency sounds.) I think there is no question the water boiled, and much of it was vaporized, so there was massive excess heat. Celani complained that phase-change calorimetry is too complicated, but I think he exaggerates the difficulty. I agree that the actual calorimetric method could be improved, especially with a 5-minute test of steam sparged into a container of cold water.
>
>
> Here are a couple of additional comments from Celani:
>
> a) The NaI (Tl) gamma detector had an energy range from 25 to 2000 keV;
>
> b) Celani asked, in several public mail to Rossi, that for a conclusive SCIENTIFIC demonstration of such wonderful device, the maximum temperature of the outgoing water has to be <90°C so that CONVENTIONAL flow calorimetry can be used (rather than phase-change calorimetry).
>
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Dear Jed (and Dear Colleagues)
I think Your report about my observations/comments, is OK.
About the intensity of 1-second signal, I think isn't a real danger.
Moreover, ALSO when the reactor was switched off, as I told You before (I hope), both the detectors give some weak anomalous counts.
Anyway, the intensity was strongly lower (in respect to switch-on situation) and no saturation of Geiger counter happened.
* So, in conclusion, supposing that my instruments were OK (and there were no influence of cosmic rays), I think that, with the tickness of lead used (now Rossi said 20mm in mean, before 10mm), the danger of the reactor itself, in steady state conditions, is of no-concern at all about radiations coming out.
* Another point is the real element used as secret additive or some new nuclear reactions (short lived elements, weakly penetrating???) that happened during the operation.
Obviously nothing can be predicted, at this moment, in the case of accident (like chemical explosion due to reaction between pressurized Hydrogen+some Oxigen coming out from some oxidized elements inside the reactor) that could scatter around the whole content of the reactor (among others, in the very small, and dangerous, state of nanomaterial).
* Really, I am convinced that ONLY Andrea ROSSI himself can answer to the (several) safety problems and/or fears.
At this moment, and due to the strict regime of secrecy imposed by Rossi, we don't have enough elements to can make any realistic scenario: our are just academic exercises.
* My opinion is, if we really like to get some useful result from our discussion/time, that we have to share/send (ASAP) such specific discussion to Andrea Rossi and Sergio Focardi.
Thanks for your attention to my comments,
Francesco CELANI
Дата: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:53:26 +0200
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Andrew M., Francesco, Jed et al
Many thanks for sharing your info and thoughts.
Right now the govt. of Maharashtra (capital Mumbai) has signed a deal with Areva (French consortium with state participation) for a 9000 MW nuclear project in Jaitapur (300 km south of Mumbai on the Indian west coast). The land has been acquired. People are demonstrating against the project and recently in police firing a person was killed. That death should not go waste.
I am going to Mumbai next week and what I would most like to do is to tell someone (influential) about the Focardi-Rossi device and stop this megaproject. But I am not a man of any influence or contacts – only BARC, Mahadeva, Iyengar, Sinha etc. can do that. But we still have no scientifically reviewed final confirmation about the F-R device, its safety etc. I do not know how many billion rupis will be invested (wasted!) on Jaitapur –if it is not stopped right way. I don’t know how these mega-contracts work, whether they can be abandoned etc. But the urgency is there.
I would hate to write to the DOE or even the FBI (since Rossi is manufacturing in the USA) about my safety concerns re. the F-R device. The nuclear safety data must be published (and publicized) now, immediately – not later. We must pressurize for that. Otherwise the CF scientists are being irresponsible. We are not in the WW II and Manhattan project times (of secrecy). Rossi must understand that any secrecy or an individualistic brush-off (“I have everything under control”) attitude is not just maverick-like or irresponsible but could be severely damaging.
In German they say “Hoch zu Ross” (=sitting high on a tall horse like a conqueror). Rossi should not have this “Hoch zu Ross” attitude.
Who can explain that to him? Privately and gently.
The Jaitapur situation demands several confirmative demos in quick succession, right now, in front of many expert committees, with all kinds of serious questions and feedbacks. FP went public 1989 when they should not have gone public. Rossi is erring the other way. He refuses to go public. Excessive fear and distrust or an “on-a-high-horse” attitude are not wise at this stage. This self-important attitude of “ I don’t have time to give demos” or “my knowledge is my knowledge and know-how” or “my contractor forbids me from speaking out” is not acceptable. The one MW device can wait another few weeks longer. It does no harm if it gets done in December instead of October. But several more demos and a full publication of accurate safety data is a must right now.
Every FR device must be legally sealed and connected to the internet (by cable or antenna) and all its data (output, safety, maintenance, recycling etc.) automatically and continuously monitored and registered by a legalized controlling authority. Chains and hierarchies of responsibility will have to be established. The manufacturing company has to be held accountable for its product till the end (recycling). May be all that even needs new legislation quickly. I can’t imagine a nuclear-active macro-device generating power (>x, value of x needs to be determined) going uncontrolled and unmonitored. It’s not windmills. In fact I am not in favor of FR units producing less than 50 MW and constructed in such a way that any attempt to tamper makes the whole device unproductive and sends a report to the controlling authority. Any tampering should be a punishable offence.
If the CF field is victorious then this victory brings with it a huge responsibility. We have no time to bask in the “glow” of this victory. Don’t forget that this glow is highly radioactive! Decentralizing radioactivity is not the right way forward.
V. Godbole
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[email protected]> wrote:
I would hate to write to the DOE or even the FBI (since Rossi is manufacturing in the USA) about my safety concerns re. the F-R device. The nuclear safety data must be published (and publicized) now, immediately – not later. We must pressurize for that.
I do not think it would be a good idea to involve the FBI. They know nothing about nuclear energy. The DoE will say that cold fusion does not exist so this is none of their business. I informed some people I know at the DoD. They did not respond.
I share some of your concerns. I circulated memos to Mike McKubre and others expressing fears that an accident might hurt people and jeopardize the future of cold fusion. They assured me there is no danger. I told Rossi as well. I and others have already explained this to him "privately and gently" as you put it. We have no influence over him. This is out of our hands -- not that it was ever in our hands.
As I said, every top official in Greece is aware of this, from the President down. I assume they will take steps to ensure safety. The Greek and Italian scientists involved with this are impressive people who know a great deal about nuclear physics.
To give credit where it is due, Rossi did assure me that safety precautions are in place, and that the proper authorities have been alerted. He is an experienced engineer who has successfully developed heavy equipment. I trust him, and I believe he has alerted the authorities. But I worry that perhaps these authorities have not given this enough thought. I wonder if they realize they are dealing with a new kind of nuclear reactor.
I told Rossi and others that, in my opinion, before a single Rossi reactor goes into service at a customer site, hundreds of reactors should be tested by national laboratories, product safety experts, the National Institute of Standards and Technology, Underwriter's Laboratory (UL) and others. The NIH should expose rats and other lab animals to the reactor to be sure it has no biological effects.
Normally, in the U.S. you are not allowed to sell even a low powered toy that has not been vetted by safety agencies and the UL. So I have always assumed that a nuclear reactor that operates by unknown principles must be throughly investigated by thousands of experts, and tested for thousands of hours before it is used. The public demands such high safety standards in the 21st century. That is why, for example, new automobile models are crash tested, demolishing millions of dollars in equipment. I suppose that hundreds of millions of dollars must be spent on the safety testing of the Rossi device. The development of the Prius automobile cost roughly $1 billion, much of it for safety. I was astonished to hear that industrialists intend to go into production for only $280 million (200 million euros). That is enough to build a factory but it seems like only a small fraction of what is needed for modern product safety testing.
I worry that the public is alarmed by the Fukushima disaster -- as it should be -- and if it becomes widely known that Defkalion is installing a new type of nuclear reactor that has not been thoroughly tested, there may be a backlash.
This kind of safety testing does not add anything to the final cost of automobiles and other products, by the way. On the contrary, it reduces the cost. Modern automobiles cost far less overall than they did in the 1960s, because they are so much safer. When you factor in the cost of insurance and the $230 billion in U.S. hospital bills from auto accidents, the cost of crash testing is trivial in comparison.
I told all of this to Rossi and others, but they disagreed with me. There is nothing more I can do. Rossi and his backers politely told me to shut up and let them handle this, and to stop making trouble by circulating alarming e-mails. They would probably tell you the same thing. You are not in a position to tell the President of Greece and assorted billionaires what to do.
- Jed
Дата: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 03:24:58 +0200
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Points to think over
1. Centralization vs. decentralization? Where in between is the golden mean?
2. Doubts are not about Rossi, but about those who will be buying and using his decentralized devices.
3. What happens when a central authority in a state collapses or is sidelined or can be ignored?
4. Is Plato’s idea of a benign dictator (philosopher king) relevant, for which Karl Popper includes him among the enemies of an open society in his book “The open society and its enemies” (as also Hegel and Marx). How open can a society be?
5. google the following words together: “jaitapur nuclear power project latest news police firing”
30-year-old Tabrez Sayekar was killed in this police firing (19.04.2011)
Jaitapur (India) nuclear power project 6 x 1600 MW
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/indust...9.ece?css=print6. Power plants producing less than 10 or 20 or 50
MW will cause excessive decentralization which can become uncontrollable and hence socially dangerous. The controlling authority can become overstretched and may lose or give up control. Or... smaller power-producing units means the controlling authority will (have to) intrude into smaller units of social life. This authority will then demand corresponding powers and thus become a new big brother.
7. Anyone with money can buy a Rossi device (soon). The buyer can camouflage his motives. How dangerous will that be?
8. Every natural calamity can become a (mini) Fukushima.
Hence: decentralization of power production is not advisable/desirable.
V. Godbole